it was harder to govern then. >> you also think about, had the clintons and how bill clinton -- he seemed to revel in politics, the reaching out to people. in the article, i found it fascinating that the obamas haven't had bill and hillary clinton over for dinner. i -- i mean, she's -- all the things that bill clinton did during the campaign, all the work that hillary clinton's done, they've never had a dinner at the white house with them? >> i think this is something outsiders find difficult and surprising. the obamas can be vivacious, charming they have great public personalities. what people in washington see -- but i think people all over the country don't necessarily see it, there's an intro version there, a self-protectedness. the obamas said both when the president became famous in 2004 and again when they came to washington, no new friends, which is the opposite of what we expect from politicians. they generally succeed by making everybody their friend. >> some people like to be president because they enjoy the office, other people relish power. >> and isn't it true, after meeting